They seem like a nice lesbian couple, aside from all that transgender foolishness. I can certainly understand wanting to wear hightop sneakers and sit with your legs folded up on the seat. And she seems to get it that sex and gender aren’t the same. I’m glad she doesn’t feel the need for medical intervention, that’s good. Hope she sorts this out over time.
Sitting with your legs folded up on a seat seems extremely ‘girlish’ to me. I would think it odd to see a guy doing that. That’s just speaking from culture, not that ovaries mean people put their feet up in chairs. I didn’t understand what was going on there.
Lauren does seem likable enough. I couldn’t make any sense out of this. It’s like they just said a bunch of nonsense and we’re supposed to pretend it had value.
It’s frustrating to think that when someone presents themselves as a gender identity that’s different to the one they were assigned at birth, they become more likely to get discriminated against or abused. Society needs to rethink their male and female label to be more inclusive and flexible in the way they think about gender.
Women are discriminated against and abused by males based on their actual SEX regardless of whether they eschew or embrace sex role stereotypes. A woman can label herself “man”, “woman” or “apple” and makes no difference whatsoever in her likelihood of being discriminated against or abused, because women are discriminated and abused based on SEX, not the way they label or think about themselves.
Welcome to Feminism 101.
BRB making my new pronouns “ap” and “apple”
Male and female need to be more flexible, despite being biological sexes, because it upsets some dudes in dresses.
“Let us in wimminz! Let us in!!!1111”
Exactly. My sex, which was *identified* at birth, is female. The gender identity *assigned to me* at birth was “shut up and serve men with a smile.”
^1 I agree with Gallus here
They don’t assign a gender identity at birth. The only people who get something assigned at birth is intersex people (their sex). There is no row or collumn for a gender identity on a birth certificate or related documents, only one for sex.
I’m grateful that most health care practitioners haven’t yet jumped on the jendah bandwagon, although I fear they will soon enough. On intake forms it’s male or female because your body doesn’t care about your identity.
Testicles inside ovaries…that’s a new one.
I hope this catches on because I have a feeling the shit is going to hit the fan when men see this.
Is is possible that many women believe that they feel like males because males are the “default humans.” It is easier for anyone, male or female, to take a “male” perspective. Because most things, ordinary things, but also including those things considered important, are presented with a male voice/by a male person. If women agree with those things or identify with the position presented, is it possible they take on what feels like a male perspective? Not sure how to explain this better. It’s a short jump from this to thinking you are male, given all the propaganda about trans.
It makes me wonder about things like reading a novel. One part of reading a novel can be to step into the main character’s shoes. If the main character is male, does the reader (woman or man) identify with that character? I think most do. Same with movies, etc. But I don’t believe that the reverse is generally true where males allow themselves to identify with a female main character. If men even read many/any books with a woman as the main character.
My point is that it’s a short step from identifying as a “default human” (always male) to thinking you are somehow “male gendered.” Especially given all the propaganda about trans.
This is far different from M2T dynamics because they are already the sex of the default human. Also, there’s the unpopularity of the word “lesbian” I know a woman who has always had female partners yet is insistent that she won’t ever call herself a lesbian. She will only call herself queer. With these two forces, it’s no wonder that women like this seek to straighten out the confusion (no pun intended) by taking the publicized route of trans identity. The culture has always thwarted lesbians from understanding who they are. Being a lesbian used to be labeled as “sick.” But now lesbians have disappeared into alphabet soup.
F2T “Just wanting to be human”
“Most people around here know Kelsey as a “she,” and Kelsey still answers to that pronoun even though it grates.”
People don’t answer to 3rd person pronouns! You’d think someone with a fancy writing career would know English don’t work dat way.
Anon male: I know, right? “Hey, she over there! Nice hat!”
GM, interesting article. For one thing agender being lumped together with trans. This is very different from trans, which supports gender roles, for M2T, anyway, to the max. Wanting to identify as human rings true in that what girl/young woman wants to be seen as a role, a subordinate one at that? But changing her body by using hormones even a small dose, is a worry for her mother and, of course, not a good idea.
That’s an interesting point about the books. I’ve fairly often seen men outright say they don’t want to read books (or play games) with a female main character, because they can’t identify with them. Yeah, they really did put it as bluntly as that, and got VERY whiny in some cases, such as when a series they liked had a female main character for the first time (and also there were complaints from them that if she had a romance plot with a male character, that would be icky! Because they wouldn’t want to risk getting any of teh gay on them if they identified with a straight female character, would they?). I’ve never seen a woman say the same thing, or seen a satisfactory response from dudes when women point out that they can identify with male characters just fine. Funnily enough, it’s always that it supposedly doesn’t matter if it’s always a male main character (and feminists are somehow being the sexist ones if they say it does), but the second a female main character is suggested, all hell breaks lose.
I wonder what difference it would make for women if we could see ourselves in the leading role in more varied media, if it was shown there’s not one way to be a woman (I think it might help with women’s confidence in themselves, too). It seems like she felt there was a specific way she had to be a woman, that she had to perform (and no wonder it felt so fake to her) femininity, especially if she wanted to act. Such a shame, though at least she doesn’t feel she has to alter her body, hopefully she might be able to work things out.
I switch genders of characters in novels all the time, imagine characters having gender switched in movies also. Reading articles I will switch genders all the time, just to “see how it feels,” how it changes things.
In my mind, I do this because I am a feminist, I believe in equality, I am interested in analyzing power dynamics.
Just had to throw that out.
@Leo- I support and testify from top to bottom of every word in your post! <3
and on the flip side M2t relate to the female characters they read about or see in movies and sitcoms. you know, the ones where the writers, editors and directors are largely men. men identifying with the creations of men, all shoved into miniskirts and fuck-me pumps to further debase the image of women for the entertainment of…well, men. (and the sick social engineering and miseducation of women)
Oops, I meant “sex” instead of “gender” in my comment – I switch the sex of characters in novels, movies, to see how that changes things. Usually it highlights how very limited the female characters’ roles are, what they get to do, say, express. The degree to which they drive the plot. But not always. But a lot!!!
Now that I think of it – I really can’t stand the Bechdel test, because it seems SO limited to me – it asks so LITTLE of movies – if two female characters talk to each other, and not about men – that’s IT? We’re supposed to feel all validated and like we are drivers of our culture, ’cause two women spoke to each other in a movie about something besides men? Gee whiz. Wow. I guess I am a demanding bitch after all.
“I felt like I was putting on this character of a female, and of a woman. And people can sense that.”
Know what else people can sense? Affectation. And you has it.
I was fully expecting her to scratch some imaginary balls at some point.
No shit. I almost snorted out my drink at the part where she’s sitting on the subway with her knees spread wide. Bad actress! BAD!
Oh that’s a good phrase. You can say of a woman you are criticizing “she was scratching her imaginary balls” – LOL for some reason Sarah Palin comes to mind, also the woman who ran Hewlett Packard into the ground, and then the female newscasters on Fox. All scratching their imaginary balls.
No kidding, Ashland Avenue. What a stereotype! It made me think of that “men who take up too much room on the subway” blog.
Oh, good point! I’m still trying to digest what I watched…even though I watched the video yesterday.
@Teal Deer- LOL! Right?!
What does this say about the lesbian community if this woman, living in NYC where surely there are thousands, believes her experience to be unique? Has she never spoke to a lesbian? It makes me sad for her that she believes her experiences to be so unique — and astonished that she believes that her experiences resemble those of a man more than that of a lesbian. Lauren, if you are reading this: make a trip to the Lesbian Herstory Archives. Learn about the thousands of lesbians who have preceded you, their stories, their aspirations, their “identities.” You aren’t that different.
A result of the decimated Lesbian Nation.
Without our herstory, we are lost. LOST.
I can totally identify with what she said about feeling like you’re in drag when you dress feminine or wear make-up. Weird that I’ve never been able to articulate that before. I try to avoid make-up and other trappings of femininity whenever possible but sometimes I do cave in to pressure. There’s only so many questions of “Are you tired?” you can deal with before you find yourself routing for the foundation. But yeah, I feel like I’m in drag when I do.
Yes, I’ve always felt like wearing makeup would be like wearing drag, as well as wearing short dresses. I’ve always refused to wear makeup, even on my wedding day way back in 1980, even though my aunt gave me hell about it. I wore a gown because I’m a history buff and like historical fashion, though I have no use for modern women’s fashion. (Had white Reeboks on under the gown, though, as I hate heels and the gown would have been too short, anyway, with heels, heh.)
I feel bad for Kelsey, though, and I think the way the mainstream media is pushing the trans agenda can only add to the obvious confusion she is feeling. I think it was somehow easier, in some ways, for gender critical youth, both gay and straight, to not get so tangled up and confused about who they were when I was a teen and young adult in the 70s. Back then, the words “sex” and “gender” were not yet being used interchangeably, which I think fuels much of this confusion. And the mainstream media did not gaslight the public with the “gender identity” nonsense that says what a person feels and “identifies” with matters more than biological fact, just because they say so.
And though many, if not most, people took the conservative view that people ought to conform to the stereotyped sex roles associated with their sex, at least dissenting views were not actively censored in mainstream media in a cockeyed appeal to “tolerance”, as is often done today — as if being called “transphobic” or “TERF” is a liberal, tolerant value! Mainstream feminism back then was mostly gender critical and not gender essentialist to cater to the trans Orwellian gaslighting in the name of “tolerance”.
I was (and remain) a tomboy back in the 60s and 70s. Thank goodness my parents, nor the people around me, didn’t get all worked up about it and drag me off to some quack to be labeled “transgender”. They just let me be myself and just be a kid, which is what parents now should do with their kids who don’t fit the stereotype.
“I felt like I was in drag.” Yep, you and every other woman who ever looked at a pair of nylons or a tube of lipstick and thought, WTF?
LOL. Even Cindy Crawford referred to herself, when modeling, as “it.” When she was all dressed up and made up, and hair styled, for a shoot – herself at that time – she referred to, she thought of, as an “it.” From Cindy Crawford’s lips to the rest of the world – “it.”
The dude said “women can be a pain in the ass sometimes, I get it.” WTF skidjddjf
I frowned so hard when I heard him say that. My mind started to just reel with questions: Well, does this mean that when he gets tired of women being a ‘pain’ he goes to men? Or does he just stay single? And if women are such a pain, why did he have an on and off relationship with his co-host for several years, who is a woman? Does he still date women?
I then started to wonder about his true thoughts on Lauren, who is, no duh, a woman. Does he somehow now excuse whatever she does as not being a ‘pain’ anymore just because she now identities as a man? If so, doesn’t that mean now that his logic is: if a man does it it’s excused, but if a woman does it it’s now a ‘pain’.
Which of course just goes to show his misogyny. But, in the end, I ain’t surprised.
On the up side, at least she’s not mutilating her body. On the down side, everything else.
Wondering why they spelled her name Lauren when the sticker she wore on her jeans spelled it Loren. Maybe that’s all you need to do these days to switch genders. If I spell my name Linn, and splay my legs out when I sit, do I become a man?
Aside from the words coming out of their mouths, these people don’t seem crazy. Their eyes aren’t wild, they aren’t babbling incoherently. She seems reasonable about pronouns. Yet nothing they say gibes with reality.
I suppose it’s their right to call themselves whatever they like. Why this is celebrated and not called mental illness is what troubles me. I dread the day when I am told to call someone by ridiculous pronouns in the workplace. I’ve been lurking on Tumblr and it’s just a matter of time before those crazies graduate and bring their delusions to corporate America. My only solace is that I’m old and hopefully I will retire or die before our society goes completely off the deep end.
The couple is in showbiz on a micro level: comedy clubs, podcasts, YouTube. Pretty sure this is a grab for an extra 15 minutes of fame. Trans and queers are a great niche market; lesbians not so much.
“Aside from the words coming out of their mouths, these people don’t seem crazy.”
They’re not crazy at all, and I also don’t think they’re confused. I think they’re just trying to fit themselves into the cultural narrative they’ve been handed, because they don’t realize there are other options. We’ve had twenty years’ worth of queer theory being taught in colleges, and spilling out into popular culture, which tells them that anything other than absolute identification with the traditional female sex role = trans.
If you look back at something like the Jonestown tragedy, it seems bizarre. How could anyone get drawn into a group as nutty as the Peoples’ Temple? But in that particular place, and that particular time — San Francisco in the 70s — the Peoples’ Temple didn’t look as crazy as it does now, especially if you were just a casual observer. A lot of people thought they were just another idealistic left-wing group that mixed up politics and religion, and did a lot of volunteer work for social justice-type causes. They looked like a somewhat more intense version of a pretty common phenomenon.
30 years from now, the idea that not conforming to a gender stereotype (and I include things like straight women believing that they’re really flamboyant, nellie gay men instead of, you know, boring straight women) somehow make you another sex, will look just as bizarre.
Forget the pronouns. How will they survive in the workplace with their inability to handle criticism or disagreement?
Just about any genderspecial who’s white and middle class, once they get out into the world, is going to find that most people don’t care about their identities. I guess it’s good that they’ve already built themselves some solid victim complexes so, when they get fired for telling a coworker to die in a fire, they can blame it on “discrimination” and not on their reprehensible behavior.
Exactly, Gallus! (and by the way, congrats on watching that thing all the way to the end. I stopped at about 2:07 because I was starting to fear for my sanity.) This woman can claim she’s a “guy” all she wants, but it makes no sense. Did it occur to her that she was having trouble getting acting roles because she was not the “typical Hollywood beauty”?. That’s nothing new to any woman ever. WE are constantly being judged on our looks because of our SEX. I mean, really, dykes cannot even be represented properly in the media.
I kept having the sense that it was a parody and had to keep reminding myself that it wasn’t. Damn fine line these days!
*Phew* I’m so glad I’m not the only one who feels this way!
I’ve come to the conclusion that this is what happens when one tries to make sense of the nonsensical in life.
This is why we need our society to rethink and discard our current ideas and theories about gender. Better yet, abolish gender entirely. Leave only sex, because it makes everything much more simple.
I can’t for the life of me find any hint of maleness, or boyishness in this woman no matter how hard I try. She’s not even what the LGBT community calls “butch”, she’s just the average woman everyone sees on the street.
How far are people willing to go to keep up this tranny parade? Until it starts making even less sense than it does now?
how far will they go? however far it takes to establish ANY narrative that derails the radical narrative that broadly and loudly declares women to be actual human beings
Sure dumbass, only women can be a pain in the ass, never men. Good one bro. Other than that, not much to say except for what has already been said.
“I can’t for the life of me find any hint of maleness, or boyishness in this woman no matter how hard I try. She’s not even what the LGBT community calls “butch”, she’s just the average woman everyone sees on the street.”
I agree. She is just a woman who drank the trans Kool Aid. It’s gotten to the point that if a woman isn’t totally into frilly dresses, super femme, then she must be “trans”.
Women who are different aren’t trans. They are just women that are different.
Damn, I’m conflicted. But the bloke has several red flags. x
The crew break down the reaction to the video in the latter part of the podcast KATG 2058.
We who question that Lauren is a man simply don’t feel special ourselves, or we never heard of transgender. Yeah, that must be it. Just because they only learned of the word a couple of years ago doesn’t mean we’ve been oblivious for the last, oh, 50 years since Christine Jorgensen et al!
Don’t miss the part was when Lauren pleads with us to humor her in her delusion. Also Keith picks comments written by teens and reads them in a halting voice to make everyone sound stupid.
I’ve still never heard one explanation for how she is male, other than in the video when she said she liked hanging with boys when she was little.
I never heard of this podcast before and its appeal eludes me. Do their fans really buy this crap? Who are these people?
Was it Audre Lourde who said something about how only people completely detached from the land, living in a place where it’s impossible to even see a sunrise, could see a leather BDSM outfit and think neato? There’s just something about being separated from the natural world that makes people obsessed with gender.
That might explain why so many late transitioners work in tech. It’s also interesting to think of the effect of being locked in a sealed room for most of your day. Working outside increases a man’s testosterone (or so I’ve heard), so what happens to men who never go outdoors?
And we seem to be getting more and more obsessed, not less. My husband is deep in Shakespeare and just found that MAID and VIRGIN were used to describe chaste young men as well as chaste young women. Contemporary people would find this unbelievable.
There is no question in my mind that separation from the natural world leads to weirder and weirder thinking. No one who lives in even minimal contact with nature thinks vaginas are male and penises are female.
LOL. Anybody growing up on a farm and seeing cattle breeding, pigs, horses – I’ve known people who’ve grown up on farms. I WANT TO HEAR FROM THE FARMER M2T or FT2. Yeah c’mon – I’m waiting for Old McDonald to put on his wife’s flower print dress and apron (or these days, his wife’s blue jeans and sweatshirt!), and talk about wanting to go feed slop to the pigs or milking the cow (overseeing the cows in their mechanized stalls, etc), instead of plowing the fields. ‘Cause it makes him all feel sexually aroused and all womanly. C’mon, bring it you farmers!
I’m picturing the male farmers I’ve known in dresses and actually it’s not that much of a stretch!
(Lots of women are out in those fields driving tractors and some driving horse teams.)
I know a F2T dogwalker and I always wonder how she can be around animals all the time & believe in this gender stuff. I often want to ask her the sex of a dog she’s with just so I can say ‘but how does she/he identify?’ to be a smartass, but of course I can’t…
I defintely agree with these comments. You have to be disconnected from reality to think like this, and also in a way that women usually don’t get the luxury of. I mean…try to tell me that biological sex is a social construct while I’m menstruating.
LOL. Good point. “Blood don’t lie.”
If Lauren doesn’t see through this whole gender bullshit eventually, I hope that she will be able to continue living with believing that she is somehow male when her body reminds her of her own femaleness every single day. Because in my experience it’s in that cognitive dissonance that physical dysphoria is born.
I know of several other FTMs who tried the non-transitioning route, but they all ended up transitioning eventually. Trying to hold on to the delusion that you are one something when your own physical reality constantly tells you otherwise is very often just to much to bear :/
It’s so strange that physical reality loses out to mental imaginings.
I wouldn’t say that dysphoria comes from the cognitive dissonance though. The cognitive dissonance IS the dysphoria and it comes from a)being told lies b) living in a woman-hating society . Both F2Ms and M2Fs are products of a woman-hating society.
I’ll admit, I only watched a snippet. But the bit I did had the lines (I paraphrase!):
” I don’t want to be a guy, I just am. I don’t want to like girls, I just do…’
Which in just a few phrases makes clear the overwhelming biological determinism of the trans cult (we just ARE this way, so stop hassling us!). The same determinism that Julie Bindel bemoans in her new book. And the same doublethink — my jenduh is nature, so leave me alone, me sexual orientation is nature, so leave me alone (but my actual biology and sex is WRONG, so we need to change that — when they get to the transition stage that is). Seems unseen brain biology (as identified by self) trumps the plain ordinary physical biology that is testable.
And intended or not, the ‘I don’t want to like girls..’ bit just sounds like lesbophobia plain and simple. Can you imagine a straight guy explaining that he doesn’t want to like girls (he just does)? Nope, probably not! Because most of the straight guys I know are much more likely to say instead — I lke girls, I mean, who wouldn’t! Anyone who said, I don’t WANT to like girls, I just do — would immediately be labelled as suspect and possibly queer, which is of course the whole point! We ONLY ever hear — I just happen to like girls/boys, I just happened to fall in love with a woman/man from those who can’t really quite admit they are gay. What did Tom Daley say after all on his video — said he still liked girls (of COURSE!!!!), he just happened to be dating a guy.
Then, from the same two little phrases, we also get what the trans cult keeps denying that jenduh identity delusions and fear over sexual orientation ARE linked.
Her internalized lesbophobia is a blatant and tragic. She lives in NYC – tons of people around – and she has never seen other women like her? Hoodie, ponytail, comfy clothes? Lesbians? I don’t believe it! She looks normal to me.
This is pitiful. Yes, as BadDyke says, she’s just self-hating as a Lesbian. But does she not look in the mirror? What is with these extremely feminine women who insist they are male? She doesn’t even look like a Lesbian in that she would be taken in public not for a man, but a het women. She passes at a het feminine women, with her long hair. The assumption is that all women are het unless they make a statement with how they look about being a Lesbian.
Of course Lesbians are further away from male than het women who choose to bond with men, but we are oppressed as “not real”‘ or “not normal” women. This woman isn’t. She must get full het feminine privilege, and then the respect that men get once she explains she’s really a man — just like the young feminine woman I met who identifies as “genderqueer” and wants male pronouns, but at least she could be taken for a Fem Lesbian. Saying she uses male pronouns got her SO much respect from men and women though.
This woman just looks like so many other het women. So how is that looking like a man?
It this just about keeping the privilege het-looking women get while trying for a bit of male privilege too?
I doubt she gets more respect when she asks to be called “he/him”. Most people are laughing at her, even if they’re not doing it to her face.
No, they aren’t. They do get the privilege. I was briefly in a free public group meeting about local nature and asked a young very feminine, but possible Lesbian, if she was a Lesbian. She said she identified as “genderqueer” and used male pronouns for herself. At another event, a man referred to her with the utmost respect as “he” and “him.”
“She said she identified as “genderqueer” and used male pronouns for herself. ”
LOL. Gawd, what an asshole.
That’s news to me for sure. I figured men in this kind of situation would take an “aw, she thinks she’s people” attitude (at best) toward a gender-conforming woman who claims to be male.
To my mind “het privilege” is a stereotype. I would say that only those het women who are able to perform conventional feminity benefit from this privilege. Those who cannot, get rather badly treated.
Thank you, Sue. I was wondering what het privilege is. Until it is understood that ALL women get a load of crap directed at them — yes, even including women who are considered beautiful by societal standards — how can we come together and fight for a different sort of world?
And by the way, though I had long hair for years, lesbians always thought I was a lesbian. Why? Because I was strong and fierce and didn’t take crap from anyone.
Okay, but I would like to point out that there is more to het privilege than just “people passing on the street assume you’re straight for performing femininity/being with a man and if they think you’re gay they might be mean” There are plenty of areas unrelated to appearance in which I, as a lesbian, get the shit end of the stick that a straight woman, no matter how butch she appears, will ever experience or understand. You have legal protections for your relationships and general well-being that lesbians are still fighting for. You have social support and power we can’t even imagine just because you’re married to some man. Think about homosexual women in countries that aren’t the US or Canada for fuck’s sake, and the lives of lesbians who lived openly in the US even fifty years ago. Of course all women get a ton of shit. But you don’t think women who fully reject men socially, romantically, and sexually don’t get plenty of hate related to that, and of a different sort? Not to mention, there’s a difference between some asshole calling you a dyke when you aren’t one, and when you actually are a fucking dyke. Because when someone calls you something you aren’t as an insult, well, what does that have to do with you? When being what you are IS the insult, and when you know what you are is considered sick and shameful by society, when you see women like you raped and murdered for publicly announcing it, when you see women like you so fucked up and traumatized that they are willing to mutilate their bodies to become “men” so they can distance themselves from and avoid being what you are, the concept of “het privilege” does not seem like a thing you can just laugh off.
I’m sure both you and Dogtowner mean well but I found your comments very irritating.
Het privilege in incredibly powerful, from getting access to a place to live to getting work, to just being treated with respect. Any woman who is not aware of this has to have no understanding of Lesbian or even celibate women’s oppression, which is Lesbian-hating.
Even calling a company about why the hot water heater we spent thousands on never worked right, I was told to get my “husband” to take apart the shower head. We have to be married to get adequate warranty response with defective products.
It is fucking everywhere, including in our Lesbian communities when Lesbians still brag about ex-husbands and ex-boyfriends.
Ex-het Lesbians who fully obeyed male rules in being wives and often mothers usually have a higher standard of living, which means survival, including the house, career, savings, access to decent health care, etc. They are not the Lesbians who end up homeless and in poverty.
The less a woman and especially Lesbian has participated in het privilege, that harder her life is, which is why Lifelong Butches tend to die so young.
“.,..Lesbians still brag about ex-husbands and ex-boyfriends…. Ex-het Lesbians who fully obeyed male rules in being wives and often mothers …”
There is a broad generalization being made here:
All het women are free to enjoy this privileged social status of het relationship, husband and marriage if they so choose.
How about considering the implications of what I actually wrote?
In my comment I spoke of women who are ABLE to perform conventional femininity. The enjoyment of het privilege is closely linked to that.
Some het women are UNABLE TO PERFORM conventional feminity.
IMO, broadly speaking the main source of privilege for women in patriarchy is their physical attractiveness as judged by men. Let me spell out the flip side for you.
Some het women are considered, by men, to be ugly. Ugly women cannot compete in performing femininity. (And some of them have no desire to perform it. But that’s kind of beside the point)
Even worse is to be ugly AND uncompromising. By “uncompromising” I essentially mean: she doesn’t put up with any bullshit from a man merely because he is male, and she insists on being treated as a fully equal fellow human being.
Ugly het women are not considered relationship material by men. Men’s only use for them is for fucking. And a het woman who is not desperate (in economic terms), who can therefore afford to have pride, does not want to fuck a man who isn’t willing to be seen with her in public, let alone have a relationship with her.
In other words, ugly het women who don’t want to be just used as a fuck receptacle, do not have husbands, or boyfriends, or relationships. An ugly het woman is on her own in a man’s world.
There are zero sources of self-respect for ugly women in our society. On the contrary. Therefore, an ugly het woman has to be super strong to build up her own sense of self-worth from within.
All this is in addition to the usual penalties for simply being a woman.
“The hot water heater we spent thousands on”…. See that word, “we”? I feel safe in guessing that you’re referring to your romantic partner. In that sense, there is no “we” for many ugly het women.
All you lesbians snuggled up together, yes, please do tell the ugly single het women how privileged they are in a man’s world. Go ahead.
Anyone who makes a sweeping claim that het women automatically enjoy the wonderful social privileges of being in relationships with the ruling male class, is erasing the very existence of all the het women who are out of the running to enjoy those privileges.
“The less a woman and especially Lesbian has participated in het privilege, that harder her life is, ”
Why, thank you for acknowledging, at the very end, that non-lesbian women don’t always fully participate in het privilege.
If you want to enumerate “het privileges”, I would appreciate it if you would list the het privileges which are not contingent on having a husband or boyfriend, and can be enjoyed by perpetually single women.
@judysdreamofhorses: I just looked carefully over your post and I would like to address some ofyour remarks. I strongly suggest that you reassess your idea of this magical “het privilege” that’s automatically conferred on het women.
“when you see women like you raped and murdered for publicly announcing it [being lesbian]”
Since I’m not identified as being lesbian, I DO enjoy the privilege of not being subjected to homophobia, including homophobic violence. I would never question that stark truth for 1 second. If you defined het women’s privilege in that sense, I would be with you all the way. However, your definition of het privilege goes way beyond that.
“when you see women like you so fucked up and traumatized that they are willing to mutilate their bodies”
This is not a uniquely lesbian FtT experience, it has to do with being FEMALE, not with being HET. Even gorgeous het women in our society hate their bodies and will surgically alter them.
And when a het female gets it hammered into her that she’s ugly and therefore unwanted*, she can’t help a terrible longing to change her body, to carve up her healthy functional body and rebuild it to change her appearance and maybe make herself a little more wanted, more accepted. But if she has both economic independence and pride, she doesn’t do it.
*this has an effect on 2 levels: On a personal level, her sexual orientation is telling her that intimacy and pair bonding are to be found with males. On a social and political level, males run things, and to be considered of little worth by the people in power, even less than that of some other women, creates an essential insecurity.
“You have legal protections for your relationships and general well-being that lesbians are still fighting for. You have social support and power we can’t even imagine just because you’re married to some man.”
I know us het women are supposed to act all nice and docile (downright feminine) when we’re talking to lesbians who are the only reeeeal feminists, BUT… Anyone who makes those assumptions about ME as a het woman, is likely to be told to fuck off.
Countless het females don’t get offered a relationship** with a man. I haven’t been, and at my age presumably never will be, so no doubt I’ll die alone after living alone. So it goes.
**”relationship”, meaning something beyond just using her for sexual relief, as noted in my previous comment.
“But you don’t think women who fully reject men socially, romantically, and sexually don’t get plenty of hate related to that, and of a different sort?”
It just doesn’t occur to you that some het women ARE REJECTED socially and romantically BY men. That there are some het women that men really *do not* want to have around them. Of course, being unattractive to an unacceptable degree is just one reason. Please note that I’m discussing this particular reason only because it’s the one I’m familiar with.
..and…Sexually rejected? Well, not necessarily. Not if you define sex as just having a penis inside you. Some men have no trouble fucking a woman they personally hate. Some men will indeed fuck women they consider hideous by the light of day. Some will fuck babies, animals, dead bodies. So merely being fucked by a man isn’t a privilege. It’s a funny thing about women: they may want to be regarded as more than a convenient receptacle. Have I got the wrong idea? Maybe het women should just lie back and think of privilege?
I don’t mean to suggest that all het women who are not considered girlfriend/wife material are pining for men. Not at all!!
I AM arguing that such women DO NOT HAVE GUARANTEED ACCESS to this lofty plane of marriage-linked privilege that you assume all het women automatically enjoy.
There is another important point to make, distinct from (though it may overlap with) the foregoing one:
Some het women, for a variety of reasons, may really not like men, or trust men, or get along with them. Some het women outright fear men.
Now, I suppose there are some lesbians out there who would argue that those het women can still decide at any time to get into bed with men they don’t trust or love, even men that they fear – y’know, kinda like sex workers do – and gain privilege that way. Well if anyone thinks that, fuck that shit.
Soooo…. I would appreciate seeing a definition of “het privilege” that does NOT include having a husband/boyfriend, past, present or future. A definition that does NOT assume successful conformity to conventional femininity.
If anybody’s wondering (or indeed, still reading): Personally I prefer being around women in many ways. I trust women (in terms of my safety) so much more than men. I am totally down with the idea of being lesbian. Trouble is, I’m just not sexually attracted to women. Being middle-aged, I really think I’d know by now. Women’s sexual parts always left me indifferent, “Meh.” If there’s a sexuality switch I can flip on and off, I haven’t located it.
I totally get what judy and Bev Jo are saying, and it may make a difference that I live in a part of the U.S. where being a lesbian (“New England marriage”) has tended not to be that big of a deal. And I can agree that heterosexual women OF A CERTAIN CLASS certainly have it better, financially at least — though possibly worse in other ways, not being free to tell their husbands to fuck off — but this discounts the experience of poor and working-class women, of whom I am one.
No career, a bit of savings, and life in a rundown 1840s farmhouse, which I would love if I weren’t severely disabled due to medical negligence — because I was a woman, and heterosexual women get the same negligent treatment as lesbian women — and seemingly endless stress, a daily facet of life for everyone in the U.S. not financially secure.
@ Sue: you said
““The hot water heater we spent thousands on”…. See that word, “we”? I feel safe in guessing that you’re referring to your romantic partner. In that sense, there is no “we” for many ugly het women.”
There is zero reason for you to make this assumption. You are projecting. Please stop doing that and please do not single out women with the aim of forcing them to discuss their personal living arrangements and/or relationships in front of an audience largely constructed of male haters. Stop doing this. If you can’t discuss without personalizing then this is not the place for you to discuss this.
“I know us het women are supposed to act all nice and docile (downright feminine) when we’re talking to lesbians…”
What. The. Fuck. This is really offensive. Perhaps lesbians have taken issue for the way you talk to lesbians because you seem to project and direct a lot of inappropriate and undeserved hostility onto us. Please stop doing that.
Everyone please refrain from personalizing and/or attacking each other in this conversation. Do not flame. Thank you.
My take on heterosexual privilege: Privilege does not require enforcement under violence, ie. compulsory heterosexuality.
That being said, there is certainly a complex system of punishment and rewards based on perceived or actual compliance to the male supremacist agenda.
Yea, I agree. I can’t say that being a het woman and married or dating a man automatically spells out privilege.
Being raped by your husband and then being told you can’t prove it because rape can’t happen in a marriage is not a privilege.
Being abused by your male spouse and being told by an officer that she probably caused it and doing nothing about it, or just telling them to separate for a little bit and then get back together, only to have him kill her a couple of months or years later is not a privilege. Or to be told by police officers, friends and family members “Why didn’t she leave? Why didn’t she say something?” after she dies…that’s not a privilege.
Having your husband in jail for abuse and having him hire a hitman to kill you from jail is not a privilege.
Telling your friends and family members that he’s raping or abusing you and not being believed, only to have friends and family members take his side, is not a privilege.
Having to take you and/or your kids to a shelter for your safety or because he wouldn’t give you the house is not a privilege.
Or having to take you and/or your kids to live on the street is not a privilege.
Also, not quite sure how:
BevJo says:”I was told to get my “husband” to take apart the shower head. We have to be married to get adequate warranty response with defective products.”
Is a privilege. To have your husband erase you and override your identity as a human being is not a privilege. This should not have been said period. You should have been addressed regardless of your martial/sexual status simply because you, the woman, was calling not a man.
For me to try and come up with how Lesbians some how have more magical privilege would do great injustice because I would be “othering” her as a woman. I would be ignoring two very important facts that unit Lesbians and heterosexuals together:
1. We’re female.
These are the very two things women cannot get away from no matter what we do. Men are erasing us as women, as mothers, as wives, as Lesbians. None of our titles as a woman is safe from a man as GenderTrender cleanly points out with all of her posts. We see married women no longer holding the title of a mother, because HE birthed the child. We see Lesbians not allowed to have their own spaces because, well, he was married to a woman and therefore this makes him a Lesbian! We see women are just not allowed to have our own spaces and even private spaces such as a restroom. We have seen time and time again, post after post, no title or position of a woman is safe from being erased from a man.
So this is what I think is important to understand: That no matter what we identify as, no matter what we do, just because we are a woman, we are the common enemy to a man.
Thanks for the response, Sue, I’ll keep all of that in mind this week while I actively hide the fact that I am a lesbian from my employer because they (a heterosexual male/female couple) are (openly!) religious homophobes who can legally fire me in for being gay if they so choose. Are you liable to get fired from your job if you tell your boss you don’t have a boyfriend? You are acting as if homosexual people do not constitute an oppressed group subject to discrimination and violence in American society, and lesbians are women who are oppressed not only as women but as also as homosexuals in housing, employment, and legal issues. “het privilege” is basically “not being subject to homophobia” privilege. Would you argue that gay and straight people are socially on the same level right now?
Also, there ARE women who can “choose,” heterosexual privilege, and these are bisexual women. Many bisexual women realize that
a) they are treated worse when perceived as lesbians and better when perceived as straight
b) their relationships with men bring actual, concrete benefits that they do NOT experience when dating women.
That the majority of bisexual women end up with men is no surprise, and while the unfortunate overabundance of men in the world plays a huge role in this, it in no way accounts for the number of BISEXUAL women (aka, women who could opt out of heterosexuality) in heterosexual relationships (which as you point out are often miserable and abusive), especially as you yourself have pointed out. Whether a woman dates men or not, she certainly has “access” to het privilege by virtue of being interested in men.
I read an essay several years ago that referred to “gender hypochondria”. I think this sums up what is going on here ?
This video felt like satire.
oh, het privilege. six of one, half dozen of the other. the degree to which we perform femininity or don’t is proportionate to the degree we are openly threatened or ostrasized. Refuse to perform those oppressive feminine roles and you will be made to pay all your lives. Dykes know this irrefutably. Het women who read as a bit butch know this too. But this ignores the fact that feminating itself is no prize. A life spent sucking the fumes of gaslighting and playing the role of mens property is just the opposite end on the spectrum of all women’s suffering.
But it does serve to keep women divided. Het privilege applies to and is centered around men, those that perform masculinity, and those that allow themselves to be regarded in the feminine role of being penetrated. reinforcing this hierarchy among women is wearing me out. I’ve been treated poorly by het women for being a dyke, thats true, but they are just playing the role thats been stuffed down their throats their whole live. While I am well aware of being ostrasized in patriarchy by both men and het women, I have also witnessed my het mother, sisters, friends, slowly wither each and every day under the jackboot of mens expectations of them, watched their light fade a bit year by year trying to maintain their femininity, under their fear of losing their “value” in this total shit world men have made.
Isn’t that the absolute and utter truth? But once, just once, I would like to hear that mother, sisters, friends say to me “You were so right. I’m sorry about the way I treated you.”
I have also witnessed my het mother, sisters, friends, slowly wither each and every day under the jackboot of mens expectations of them, watched their light fade a bit year by year trying to maintain their femininity, under their fear of losing their “value” in this total shit world men have made.
— so, so, so true. I’m straight, I’m single, and I’m getting older, as are the married women (to men) that I know – once the kids are grown, well, why stay in a marriage with someone who mistreats you? We can’t talk about it – ’cause I’m the living (“horrible”) example of a woman on her own – but it’s there. Whatever you think of my life – at the end of the day, I don’t get into bed with a man who emotionally abuses me, mansplains, ridicules me, loses his temper, throws things, puts me down, interrupts me and won’t let me get a word in edgewise – but I know women, women I love, who do. They get into the bed they made for themselves – or somebody made for them.
Me, I just go to bed. Fuck it.
Choosing men and male-identified femininity is collaborating with the enemy against women who say no. Because they are being hurt by being invested in men does not mean they do not have the privilege to hurt us. They do, in many ways.
I don’t see them withering at all. I see those same women having the highest standard of living among Lesbians when they come out in their fifties, with few worries, nice houses, careers they love, and the time and money to enjoy being Lesbians, unlike those of us who created the Lesbian community they now enjoy.
Then there are the Lesbians who choose to go back to men, for the status and privilege, including finally being accepted by their Lesbian-hating families. Just watch these women proudly parade their men in our last spaces, which of course are never women only any more.
What is this fantasy about how hard het women have it? They are choosing their men and know it. They don’t even want to be oppressed as a pathetic single or celibate woman.
Do you really not go to events like dances where Lesbians are desperate to be together, now that we have no bars or any other spaces left, and see the het women smirking at us as they cling to their men? The younger het women probably have fucked around with Lesbians and look at us like we’re the local freak show. These het couples also go to our “Dyke March” to video the half naked Lesbians.
The older het women at the nightclubs look disgusted, horrified, and envious when they realize there are groups of Lesbians on the dance floor, while their men look like zombies. These women all know very well the options they have. And they choose men over women for many reasons, all of which have to do with het privilege.
The idea of ‘het privilege’ seems much like that of ‘cis privilege’ to me.
Moss: all women who do not perform femininity are socially punished. Heterosexuality is seen as part of that. Submitting to male demands is not fun but it keeps you from getting punished in this sense. You are allowed in. “Cis privilege” runs into trouble when men claim women have privilege over them, because that is not how the gender hierarchy works, regardless of whether the man claims to be “really” a woman.
Moss, sorry, but as a heterosexual female, i have to agree with Bev Jo that het privilege is real. I can’t speak to the dances or dyke March stuff as I’ve never experienced either situation described, but when my lesbian friends have adopted, they’ve had to lie about their sexuality, and about being in a stable relationship (not marriage, not where I live) to be able to adopt. Obviously, they have less privilege than single Het females if they had to pretend to be one to adopt. A college in my city is well known for its ultraliberal LUGS (lesbian until graduation). I think a pretty good way to tell if you’re privileged is if you are able to try on identities that aren’t optional for their true owners. Only the privileged appropriate.
You are reversing reality. There is no reverse discrimination. Just look around you to see who is oppressed and who isn’t. Lesbians are more than doubly oppressed as women and as Lesbians. Butches are so oppressed that no Butches are even allowed to be seen in the mainstream OR Lesbian media.
If you’re going to play the trannie game, it’s more like Lesbians are the women who the trannie men are saying have privilege over them. So “cis” = Lesbian.
And we are there again. Groups of het women telling us we are privileged.
Hetero women, even more mothers and married het women, are privileged in society compared to all other women. All women are oppressed in patriarchy, but there is a clear hierarchy and hetero women are at the top (still oppressed, but privileged compared to other women). Het women are the only women who count for patriarchy because they are upholding it. They are literally carrying patriarchy in the next generation. And that for het women are privileged up and down, from legal protection to representation in the media and everything in between.
And then you have the gall to tell us we are privileged?
No, het privilege is not like ″cis-privilege″. Unlike trannies, Lesbians exist. And we are under fire by everyone in patriarchy, also from het women. That tells me enough.
PS: But if we are all honest, we radical feminists know very well that het privilege exists. Some women call that being a ‘handmaiden’. I don’t like the term for several reasons, but it is a fact that radical feminists know very well that plenty of women actively contribute to patriarchy, or else this term would not be in use.
(Sorry for the two posts, this came to my mind later, didn’t mean to spam.)
“What is this fantasy about how hard het women have it?”
Wow Bev Jo. I’m not defending hetero women who behave badly towards lesbians. But I *really* don’t think this comment is okay when so many women are basically brainwashed into heterosexuality and femininity and so damn many are in abusive relationships with men and they don’t even fully understand that what’s going on is wrong. So damn many stuck in abusive relationships. Thinking she must stay for the kids or whatever.
The politcs of het women as victim is part of what has gutted modern feminism into a liberal unappealing mess. Real Feminism in the Seventies was all kinds of women discussing the choices they and other women knew they were making. Only when gay men demanded we agree with them about “born this way” to get equal rights did the line change. And now the memory of Lesbian Feminists proudly saying we all choose is being wiped out.
Again, if it’s so bad to be het, why do Lesbians return to it? It’s something I would never do, but I sure see them happy with all the attention and privilege.
You are also forgetting that we remember our teenaged friends in high school who were not interested in boys at all decide they’d better get going with learning how to flirt and get a man or “what would people think” and they might end up old maids or the horror of being a Lesbians.
We saw these choices being made. We saw our then newly-het friends patronizing all of us who had not chosen men, including those who later did. Some of these het girls physically assaulted young Lesbians and even the girls who avoided males.
For me, this was before there was a single book or film that showed Lesbians in a positive way as not as a horror movie. Once there are beloved Lesbians on TV, not excuse to not know there are other choices.
How did the truth of choice get turned into the myth that het women are victims, didn’t know, didn’t choose, were “brainwashed?” We all were subjected to the propaganda. Some of the most class-oppressed girls and women said no to men.
And instead of referring to the very class-priivilege het women with fancy houses, maids, nannies, etc. suddenly het women are portrayed as poor, abused, trapped with multitudes of kids.
Who wants us to believe women have no choice? Besides the men, it’s clear this diluted pretend feminism is serving some of the trolls in our community who are now supporting the trans cult. It’s sure not a good politics for any woman.
THE PARASITIZING AND GUTTING OF RADICAL FEMINISM
“How did the truth of choice get turned into the myth that het women are victims, didn’t know, didn’t choose, were “brainwashed?” We all were subjected to the propaganda. ”
We’re ALL victims of the patriarchy, het or lesbian. Yes, it IS possible to ‘escape’ on an individual basis, to choose to reject the whole feminine grooming thing and to reject men as well. But that isn’t without risks — of COURSE there are risks to doing that else women (who I believe are fundamentally sensible human beings) would never put up with it! It was not biologically determined that we are doormats, it has taken a LOT of power and abuse of power to put us where we are and KEEP us there for so long. I really don’t know why I was so LUCKY that I didn’t go that route, but there were definitely costs involving in NOT agreeing with heteronormativity, and the enforcers of that were women as well as men.
I think we need to keep asking, WHY do you keep doing this (heterosexuality), and pointing out that there are other ‘choices’. But when it comes to doing heterosexuality when younger, whatever other ‘choices’ (Quotes since I don’t really want to say that these are free, open, conscious choices that women always consciously make) are there, the patriarchy makes pretty damn sure to twist and subvert them whenever possible. Just born like it is a good one, As is the ‘doing lesbian’ for the boys. Lesbians being just about sex, another good one.
I think lesbians and butches know all too well what extra shocks they are heir to because of their refusal to toe the line. Not all of us can stand it, but the rewards in terms of loving women and the sometimes distressing clarity of vision you gain, is mostly worth it. That is the ‘choice’ we are making. Straight women are also making a ‘choice’, but it’s part of the ‘choice’ that they made that you can’t see/admit that it was a choice, or that there are immense forces constraining your choice.
Bev Jo – this is the problem I have with your posts, they make it seem like you think all women in relationships with men are scheming and purposely choosing men over women for the money and status, and that no woman in a straight relationship could possibly be a victim.
When so many ARE abused. I’m not saying everyone. But I have seen and known too many. It breaks my heart.
“And instead of referring to the very class-priivilege het women with fancy houses, maids, nannies, etc. suddenly het women are portrayed as poor, abused, trapped with multitudes of kids.”
That’s because poor, abused, trapped straight women also exists. I don’t get it. Don’t you understand that both/all sorts of types exists?
Many het women are told that lesbians are ALL sexworkers, so you are being treated like fallen-woman. Yes, welcome to the club- 🙂 Men have valued you as being equal to those doing porn or other sexwork for the entertainment of men, because lesbian is a category of porn..
In the 1960, women were treated like they were all in a beauty contest, now it escalated to all women being judged for how they benefit men with what form of sex they provide to men. [nude-selfies, playboy, slut, sexworker] <all women need to fit these constraints when men talk about them now a days, or they are considered non-humans, their mom, or their boss.
I think the russian cosmonaut woman that got pissed that reporters asked her how she would wash her hair and care for her child spending a few months in space, completely rocks. She shot back with,'Do you care about my fellow cosmonauts hair? This is my JOB, Like those guys dont have rug rats at home!
And special congrats to the Indian women that got a satellite in orbit around Mars for a fraction of the cost the men need. I am happy they they wore traditional woman's garments to emphasize female ideas benefit humanity.
Liberation to Equality will be a struggle. It just will be. Men are being asked to give their 'free slaves'
Het privilege? Some women are in the same boat- it is all male privilege. Look at other models around the world and it applies to the woman's het life there too.
If it wasn't a het- male thing- a lesbian sex life would not matter to men, it would not bother het women because you are not even competition for alphamales. but males project the disappointment on het women to villainize you and use you for leverage to convince a het woman to have a threesome that will be over and done with if their man wants you. Dont feel bad, the het women are convinced they can't take care of themselves and live there, they are forced to go along with the man out of a no-choice situation. They think your movement will make them homeless and useless.
Please keep in mind that het women are used and tossed as much as any woman..esp for disloyalty to men.
We want to blame them for knowing better, but-and I have met many- they have no power in this, this is a 'guy'; campaign .
Bev Jo, the concept of het privilege has helped me get a bit of a grip on why any woman would choose to be with a gross, disgusting male. Males give so little of value to women, and are so abusive, that I can’t wrap my head around why there are any het relationships at all. Thanks for the heads up about het privilege. . Even though het women look down on us, I feel sorry for <them.
Sorry–I meant them.
Maybe a lot of women don´t date women because they aren´t attracted to women? This is ridiculous lol now heterosexual women are being blamed for domestic abuse and all that, because after all they choose to date men? Hetero “privilege”, white people just wanna be oppressed and not the oppressors for once in their lives so bad.
Coffee, I certainly did not mean in any way that any woman is responsible for her own abuse. I am very sorry if it came out that way. Of course I understand that straight women are not attracted to women. My point was I can’t understand what any woman finds attractive in a male, especially given the high rates of abuse women suffer at the hands of males. Far from blaming these women, my heart bleeds for them, and I wish somehow I could protect them all.
I support any woman’s right to be in any relationship she chooses. However, if I don’t understand something, I reserve the right to say so. Males are so disgusting and abusive in my eyes that I can’t understand how any woman can see something attractive about them. Not saying they can’t or shouldn’t – – just saying I don’t get it.
I identify as heterosexual and of course there’s privilege that goes along with that (to say otherwise is to say that homophobia doesn’t exist). But I haven’t been in a relationship for years because being in one makes me miserable. As I heard one commenter put it, I don’t want to be “the junior partner in a relationship”.
This was a really interesting discussion. I think I can sort of see everyone’s point here, which is weird.
Farish, I think it is that women get remorselessly trained into heterosexuality. The training didn’t take with me, but I saw many of my friends get moulded into the “you must want marriage and babies” shape. The idea is that you have to please men, to be likeable, to be attractive, to be “normal”. Being pushed into that shape doesn’t seem like a privilege to me, but a punishment.
Everything in our culture tells us we have to be beautiful and attract men. We have to try so hard and never stop, shaving our naturally hairy legs and even nowadays our pubic hair, putting treatments on ourselves, dyeing our hair, spending all our money on clothes, and God forbid we get visibly older. We are constantly bombarded with instructions about how we’re doing it wrong and how we can do it better. How can you give your (male) partner better oral sex? 10 Things You Do That Turn Men Off. And so on, and so forth.
I cannot blame the girls who look for approval and try their very best to get it. They are doing what they have been trained from birth to do – and isn’t the idea of such training a horror in itself?
I was very lucky in that I’ve been resistant to such training my whole life, but it *is* luck – the girls in my class at school who were going to spend their whole lives in our small town didn’t have the opportunities I had to escape from it and didn’t have the escape route I did from the pressures of media and society. If anything I have privilege over them, not they over me.
How is it we can go on and on, write books, give lectures, form analysis, create the philosophy of Radical Feminism? We know about social conditioning, cultural reinforcement of patriarchal norms, trauma bonding, the constant bombardment that is breathtaking in scope, telling us we are inferior, telling us het is normal and natural, that we are meant to be domestic slaves and objects for men pleasure. The system of reward and punishment, of shame, the system that divides us from each other and rewards us for the divisiveness we enact on behalf of patriarchy and toward each other. How is it we have all these theories and manifestos, and then when faced with the result of this conditioning, somehow the theories don’t apply? BevJo, most of what you call het privilege, I see as evidence of the deep harms of patriarchal socialization.
We acknowledge regularly the impetus behind F2t transitioning as evidence of patriachal harm to women and often to lesbians. Women are willing to mutilate themselves and poison their own bodies to escape the role of woman that men prescribe, but het women’s behavior toward lesbians isn’t a result of capitulating to the system of reward and punishment doled out by patriarchy?
I don’t think women are perfect, and some women are cruel and spiteful, even sadistic in their treatment of other women and of lesbians in particular. Perhaps these women still would be even absent the influence of patriarchal mandates drilled into them since birth. I’m trying to wrap my head around how we, as feminists, can decry the overwhelming scope of harm done by lifelong conditioning under patriachy, and yet hold women in contempt for demonstrating the evidence of that harm?
At some point I think we all come to understand and make conscious choices about how we treat other women, and yes I think there is some blame to go around. The way some women treat Lesbians makes me angry, may be worthy of my contempt, certainly of my mistrust, but for the most part, when I see a woman who so clearly and so desperately NEEDS to parade her man in front of a group of Lesbians, I feel a great deal of pity for her.
And Lesbians who go running back to het lives, I can’t imagine. To know intimacy with a woman, to know a womans touch, and then make the choice to go without that for the rest of your life? even some part of it? Again, incredible pity. I imagine at some point, they lie on the edge of sleep, not yet fully awake, feeling the warmth of the person in bed with them, and the mind drifts, fools them for a moment, fools them into the memory of waking to some past lover, and they roll over and BAM, its a man in their bed. How disappointing, how painful. I shudder at the thought.
Some women can not bring themselves to stare into the great, cold abyss of what patriarchy has wrought upon our bodies and our souls. They run screaming from those cold depths, but to do so, they have to fully embrace the illusion, the Great Lie. For some, when they go, they go all in, and to go all in means treating othe women like shit
“How is it we can go on and on, write books, give lectures, form analysis, create the philosophy of Radical Feminism? We…”
shediogenes: I was really moved by this comment. Thank you for expressing this so well.
Reblogged this on I remembered that I'm a man, so I stopped pretending to be a woman and commented:
Watching young Lauren, I was afraid that she would soon be targeted by the gender ID industry and coerced into beginning the physical mutilations. I didn’t pick up that she “hates her body,” but in my case, I didn’t hate my body either. I was just very uncomfortable with the idea that I was male, and with many male roles & behaviors in patriarchy (and yes had some erotic charge as well). It was earlier times, but despite my “gender dysphoria,” I too had firmly resolved not to have any hormonal or surgical interventions. I knew that I was male, but believed that “somehow” I was really female. Even so, I was aware that this “somehow” status only reflected the unresolved pain & conflict of my childhood and younger days.
At age 40, after an extended period of hard times (with brains scrambled by antidepressants & a bottle of red wine every night), I took the bait and entered a sort of “willing suspension of disbelief.” Samuel Taylor Coleridge used this term to describe what happens when we become deeply engrossed in reading a novel. I was in emotional pain, and in the false dichotomy I had formed (“suicide” or “living as a woman”), it just seemed an easier road. And even 15 years ago, it was a very easy road. By now, transgenderism is presented as the preferable option. In retrospect, I see that I decided to “buy into the lie” that I was actually a woman and that it would be healthy and normal (and even would help to heal my childhood pain) if I embarked fully into medicalized transgenderism. It was an overt decision to engross myself in a fictional “reality.” I stayed in that delusion for 13 years.
In her career/passion of “acting,” I hope Lauren will take enough time to engage with her “actual self” and soon meet up with good friends, good feminist books and great feminist blogs (e.g. GenderTrender).
When did “het” replace “straight”? I really hate “het.”
I hate radfem just as much as I hated women’s lib and women’s libber. Yuk yuk yuk.
I hate “het” as much as I hate “cis”. I guess some people don’t like calling heterosexuals “straight” because it implies there’s something wrong with being gay.
People are really becoming oversensitive little babies over words like that. I don’t like it either.
I didn’t understand why “homosexual” is so horrible, but “same-sex” is perfectly fine.
I’ve noticed lately some trans* crowd claiming basically, a man who wants to have sex with RuPaul would be straight, because RuPaul impersonates a woman.
Except RuPaul isn’t a woman, and doesn’t even claim to be. In their definition, “straight” just involves being attracted to high heels or lipstick or whatever, whether a male or a female is wearing it. It has nothing to do with physical biology, it’s all culture and appearances.
So a hetero male who would never strike a female thinks he’s talking to a female, but finds out he’s talking to a male in a dress instead of a female, the hetero male becomes enraged and punches the male wearing the dress, that’s “transmisogyny”.
I wondered if that’s why homo/hetero was shushed, so a male could have sexual intercourse with another male and still be considered ‘straight’, as long as one of the males has some eyeshadow on (or similar with females).
It doesn’t seem to matter anyway. Bradley Manning says he’s a female with his cock and balls, and the trans* crowd will literally argue that a same-sex relationship is ‘heterosexual’ as long as one male wore a tie and the other male wore a dress (at some earlier point in their life). It’s that easy. Forget biological reality. It all depends on what you were wearing earlier.
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