UN Letter on Gender Identity “incomplete” says author Elizabeth Hungerford

Graphic from Hungerford's website
Graphic from Hungerford’s website

Very Interesting. Lesbian Feminist attorney Elizabeth Hungerford -who authored the controversial “Letter to the UN Commission on Women on Gender Identity” with another lawyer now states that the original “is incomplete”.  A “doctor’s note” is insufficient to protect women from males who wield “Gender Identity” for an “Improper Purpose”. Read more at the link.

43 thoughts on “UN Letter on Gender Identity “incomplete” says author Elizabeth Hungerford

  1. Awesome quote: “People who have no commitment to transition, no consistency in indentity or presentation, and no need for medical treatment related to their sex dysphoria: these people are not “trans.”[xiii] They are part-time cross dressers. And women have no moral or legal obligation to silently accept their presence in our sex-segregated spaces.”

  2. I maintain that women have no obligation to accept into sex-segregated spaces neither male-born transgender nor transsexual. No amount of cosmetic surgery and synthetic hormones changes your sex. These men, regardless their feminized appearances, are still men. I am sorry they feel extreme discomfort in their male bodies, but it is an outrage that male medical, political and social structures have appropriated the female sex class for these men. It is a gross violation of MY human rights, and I intend to fight it to the day I die. No transition, no legal status as women of any qualifier, and no access to female spaces.

    1. I have to agree. It makes no sense to be able to have a political sex change considering an actual biological sex change is impossible. If you are not a woman you don’t need to be in women-only spaces. Only intersex people should be able to ‘choose’ their sex politically, because they are the only ones that actually need to. If you are a gender non conforming male you should fight for safety in communal and men’s spaces.

    2. I agree. It’s funny, because I wouldn’t have agreed a year ago. But the trans agenda has radicalized me. I will no longer negotiate with terrorists. Men need to get the fuck out of women’s spaces. That includes castrated men and men taking hormones.

    3. @pantypopo
      I find it maddening that women have to claw back our entitlements like this.
      We HAD protection, we HAD a safe space and the political whining of a few cocks-in-frocks stripped it away from us.
      Why the fuck should we have to make all the provisions to protect ourselves? We already had them 5 years ago!
      I’m not trying to denigrate E. Hungerford here, because what she is doing is fucking important, but why should we have to put in these provisions?
      There are three sexes and a million fucking genders! People who are “gender-queer” who talk about switching genders every month.
      Do they switch bathrooms too? Is there a need for sanitary napkin disposals in the mens so that gender-fluid females can use the male restroom?
      (Not that they are likely too)
      Isn’t it smarter then to say that because the use of a bathroom is A BIOLOGICAL REALITY that we use the bathroom BASED ON THE BIOLOGICAL REALITY of our sex?
      You can’t identify your way out of having to urinate!
      Why wasn’t there a campaign for gender neutral bathrooms instead and a law passed to maintain at least one gender neutral bathroom at public locations?
      Or a provision that, in the event of no gender neutral bathroom, trans can use the single stall disabled?
      If transgender is a MEDICAL condition, then why can’t they use the gender neutral disabled toilet?
      Where is the evidence that supports their need for safety in the womens?
      As Gallus wrote on one of her Transgender Bathroom pieces, trans navigate going to the bathroom EVERY SINGLE DAY. I think the estimate was around 30 million people worldwide and yet there is not a SINGLE shred of evidence of them being attacked in a bathroom of their SEX.
      Why is there no mandate that transgender who fear from their safety in prison get put into protective custody, or (in some larger prisons) the LBGT cell block? Why do they have to be in the womens prison?
      Why are they housed in women’s domestic shelters? Can’t they be housed at male shelters? Male shelters can’t have wards for at risk people? Why threaten the safety of scores of women for ONE male?
      It is just…fucked. And I am just fucking pissed off that this shit now exists in my home town.
      “First they came…”

    4. I hope that trannies take over the whole sex industry and that most males decide females aren’t as good as trannies…then maybe they’ll leave us alone. Can you imagine if uterine implants were actually feasible though? They would secretly put us in camps to harvest our organs, or doctors would be paid to lie to women and insist we needed emergency hysterectomies, which would be implanted into these men.

      1. I’d pay big bucks to watch some prick give birth. Hopefully it’s a nice long arduous birth and it rips his asshole out, or whatever orifice he shoots it out of. I’d laugh my ass off. Hopefully some woman is there to tell him when to puuuush.
        Once a few of them went through a pregnancy and “gave birth” I’m sure abortion would be on demand with abortion clinics on every street corner. lollolololol

      2. And I’m sure the first trans menstrual cramp would be a huge deal, and be so much more painful and disabling than any cramps a “cis” woman has ever experienced.

      3. It would not be a secret it would out in the open. Is porn a secret? Is anything these sick men do done in secret? And it would be their civil or human right. Just like surrogacy–they get 2 womens’ bodies as it is. They would not be harvested from us, we are a bunch of nasty old hags–(and they all look like the Joker in cheap wigs) They will harvest uteri from infants and little girls. More authentic–girlhood and all. Yep 50 year old ugly on a monkey men–more little girlhood.

  3. I don’t even want post-op trannies or the medically-approved-with-‘ongoing identity’ types in female only spaces – even if they’re not there for ‘improper purposes’ they’re still voyeurs on femaleness, hoping to improve their act ala ‘Single White Female’. I don’t think it’s appropriate of the law to compel women or men into playing a role in some profession transgressors deluded melodrama of self. The whole thing stinks of Crowleyism and it’s ‘do what thou wilt’ motto.

    1. Re: “still voyeurs on femaleness, hoping to improve their act ala ‘Single White Female’.”
      This constitutes an “improper purpose.” Public bathrooms are NOT spaces for men to work out their sexual/gender issues (or trauma issues, or whatever the heck it is). We are not here to provide this service to men!!!!!!!!!!

  4. Exactly. Of course it’s horrible to have fully visibly male predators in female restrooms, but it’s been incredibly destructive to have post-op men in our Lesbian communities, perving on us, re-writing our history, subjecting us to their porn in our “women’s spaces,” etc. We are far more than castrated men, but too many women think a castrated man is now a woman. I haven’t seen these men being any different in terms of their sexually harassing women except that they have somehow become experts on women and Lesbians. Men who identify as women, no matter what form they take, can never be women and are in fact more dangerous and male than other kinds of men — because no other men so manage to get women to fight for them against other women.

    1. Re: “because no other men so manage to get women to fight for them against other women.”
      I’m sure there’s some fundamentalist churches out there, who are equally adept at getting women to fight for them against other women.

  5. I’m more sympathetic to those who transition when young. But a 50 year old male deciding to play dress-up and swallow hormone cocktails isn’t a woman, and I don’t want to be pushed to pretend he is. That public health resources should be allocated to these fantasts makes me angry–they want to get nipped and snipped, they can pay for it themselves. Medical transitioning isn’t a ” right”, but they’re pushing for it all the time.

    1. If young, they STILL do not change their biological sex. If young, it may be they are being pressured by homophobic adults around them to undergo surgery and/or hormonal treatment. If young, they may grow up and realize transition was the WRONG decision for them, and they have to sit in therapy for years (if they’re lucky!) to work out their feelings and grieve their losses. And/or they’ll be testifying to Congress that trans-ing children IS CHILD ABUSE AND IT MUST STOP!!!!!
      Sorry for the all caps. Dragging children into this mess of homophobia and misogyny angers me deeply.

      1. totally agree. Honestly half of my childhood friends, and myself included, could have been ‘diagnosed’ with GID because ya know, gender is learned, so a lot of children take some time to be indoctrinated into it. Gender = fascism = spawning of avoidable mental illness

    2. I am very concerned with the human rights of vulnerable children and youth regards to their treatment as human guinea pigs for “off label” treatments and a complete lack of Institutional Review Board oversight of those activities by all the hospitals involved.
      Parents and doctors should not have the right to make children sterile (side effect of Lupron) because they do not conform to hetero-normative patriarchal gender roles.

    1. Ugh. I know that journalists for major newspaper must abide by the writing conventions of their employers, and so most will refer to trans people by their preferred pronouns. So, in this case, a man, a male serial killer, a killer of women, is called “she.” While reading the original article, especially when it’s accompanied by a picture of his ugly, terrifying man-face, nobody (who is sane) could be fooled into believing this man is a woman. But, pull a quotation from here, plunk it down in another context, and it puts women in the equal company of predatory, sociopathic men:
      “Donna Perry, 62, appeared in court in Spokane, Washington on Tuesday – 24 years after she allegedly murdered the women and dumped their bodies on the banks of the Spokane River.”
      This is unethical. It’s a blatant lie. The media are doing more than helping these lying liars lie. They are actually doing the heavy lifting involved in carrying off this deception, which is something a male psychopath with fake tits could never do completely on his own. I’d go as far to say that journalists, in their cowardly deference, are supporting a murderer at the expense of his victims and THEIR truth: that they were killed by a man because they were women.
      Thanks trans-activists! And now those same trans-activists rush in again, and tell us how to think, and what to feel, about perverse, rapist, murderous MtFs. We must never, ever use our minds to make rational connections between what these men do and what they ARE:
      ‘Making being transgender into a motivating factor for murder is almost like the horror film, “Dressed to Kill”. It feeds directly into the horror stories about gender identity disorder.’
      Oh, boo-hoo, for those transphobic horror stories! I think I’ll save my tears for the women Perry killed and dumped like trash who lived and died in actual horror. The last line of this article is not reserved for the women who lost their lives at the hands of a woman-hating man. No. Instead, it’s an admonishment to any reader who might have an uncharitable thought about a man pretending to be a woman.

  6. Please do not have sympathy for the men who “transitioned” early. The man who stalked me into the Lesbian community after having no understanding about Lesbians or why I wanted him to stop pressuring me and that no meant no, was still quite young when he figured out a way to have access to Lesbians by claiming to be one. He’s been identifying as a Lesbian or bisexual since 1971, but he is still as male, intrusive, porny, stalky, and dangerous as ever in that just that he alone can make many spaces and groups not be women only. And he has Lesbians fighting other Lesbians for him, even though they don’t seem to really want to be around him.
    These men can never be women. Ever. They do not suffer oppression as women not matter how long they have been female impersonators. It’s many men’s fantasy to be around Lesbians, perving on us. They are men, and they do know that. Just the fact that they remain so entitled while never accepting no is proof that no men can never be women.

  7. I was once in the stall next to a trans woman. She seemed to be a kind person. It was odd though, to me, to hear a urine stream that sounded so unfamiliar. If it’s going to be like this we might as well have entirely unisex bathrooms, or just several unisex locking open-air rooms that you see in smaller buildings, not stalls within a larger room.

    1. Ugh, I hope not. Most unisex bathrooms are disgusting. I don’t want to handle a toilet seat that’s been left up, even with paper, nor do I want to step in their little puddles.

  8. It looks to me like the UN letter is a reasonable proposal. Even if you believe gender is a social construct and the cause of the “need” to transition, it doesn’t mean that gender identity or gender dysphoria can be reversed or unconditioned. Much like the social constructionist view on human sexuality, objecting to “born this way” views on human sexuality never comes from the stance of scrapping gay rights. Its viewed instead that heterosexuality an an institution is unnatural, without the enforcement of hetero patriarchy more people would be none heterosexual and there would be no need to form an identity around sexuality. But in the here and now the system still exists and gay people need protections, no matter what the origin of their sexuality is.
    When gay people gain rights we get heterosexuals insisting its infringing on their rights, issues around sex segregated spaces are raised for gay people too. Rights for gay people dont over ride sex based rights though, infact they enhance them by broadening the excepted sex based behaviour.
    As radical feminists we need to be able to criticise the construction of gender, and criticise biological essentialist views on gender. We also need to protect sex segregated spaces for women, by ensuring men cannot enter by just identifying as a woman. But we also have to except transsexuals exist, and disagree with them on why they exist.
    Here in the UK we have had legislation similar to what is proposed in the UN letter in place since 2004, transition here is regulated. I don’t remember anyone making a big deal about it in 2004, it was one of those things which slipped by un talked about, unlike gay marriage. It is hard to have born women events in the UK, but it is possible as radfem2013 went ahead and born women only meetings do too. So i think its important to look at the effects in practice as they often dont present the problems one thinks they will.

  9. God, I can’t believe you’re moderating my Andrea Dworkin quote. NEWSFLASH: YOU ARE NOT A RADICAL FEMINIST!

      1. Oops! Sorry, I guess maybe I didn’t submit it correctly or something. Eek. My bad. Anyway, this is what I wrote.
        Gallus, I’m curious if you’ve read the following in Chapter 9 of radical feminist Andrea Dworkin’s “Woman Hating” (1974):
        Transsexuality is currently considered a gender
        disorder, that is, a person learns a gender role which
        contradicts his/her visible sex. It is a “disease” with
        a cure: a sex-change operation will change the person’s
        visible sex and make it consonant with the person’s felt
        Since we know very little about sex identity, and
        since psychiatrists are committed to the propagation
        of the cultural structure as it is, it would be premature
        and not very intelligent to accept the psychiatric judgment
        that transsexuality is caused by faulty socialization.
        More probably transsexuality is caused by a faulty society.
        Transsexuality can be defined as one particular
        formation of our general multisexuality which is unable
        to achieve its natural development because of extremely
        adverse social conditions.
        There is no doubt that in the culture of male-female
        discreteness, transsexuality is a disaster for the individual
        transsexual. Every transsexual, white, black, man,
        woman, rich, poor, is in a state of primary emergency
        (see p. 185) as a transsexual.
        There are 3 crucial
        points here.
        * One, every transsexual has the right to
        survival on his/her own terms. That means that every
        transsexual is entitled to a sex-change operation,
        and it should be provided by the community as one of
        its functions. This is an emergency measure for an
        emergency condition.
        * Two, by changing our premises
        about men and women, role-playing, and polarity, the
        social situation of transsexuals will be transformed,
        and transsexuals will be integrated into community, no
        longer persecuted and despised.
        * Three, community
        built on androgynous identity will mean the end of
        transsexuality as we know it. Either the transsexual will
        be able to expand his/her sexuality into a fluid androgyny,
        or, as roles disappear, the phenomenon of transsexuality
        will disappear and that energy will be transformed
        into new modes of sexual identity and behavior.
        As a male genderqueer, I’m trying to work toward point three, but you are missing entirely one and two, which may be a prerequisite to three. Why are you fighting this? Maybe you like S&M and porn too much to align yourself with Dworkin?

      2. You’re right. I wasn’t really responding to the post. Sorry for that. I was simply curious if you’d read it and had no other way to get it to you. I’d hardly consider quoting a woman to be mansplaining. Oh, and I have a person brain. A person brain that has been distorted by gendering.

      3. That’s too bad for you. I reserve the right not to converse with abusive entitled assholes. I’m funny like that. Good luck to you sir. Good day.

      4. P.S. you giant gaping asshole: if you had read the post you were commenting on you would know where to go for gender conversation. Hungerford has a link to her open discussion group at the end of her post. Seriously, you are a moron.

  10. “Duck Duck TruceDecember 17, 2013 at 8:20 AM
    Hi Christy,
    Your writings are very insightful and strike a chord with me. I’m curious if you’ve read Jaimie Veale’s “Identity-Defense Model of Gender-Variant Development” (http://wwwdot jaimieveale dot com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/idmodel.pdf) which proposes a pretty compelling theory to explain the varieties of transgender identity development and incorporates the “Exotic Becomes Erotic” theory.
    I’m a 30yo autogynephile (a concept which I discovered about a month ago and shook me to the core). My female side is definitely still chained up and gagged in the dungeon of my mind, but her groans are getting louder, and I have a suspicion I’d be much happier if I let her out.
    I’ve been trying to go to transgender support groups in the hopes I could find some role model or peer, but I just can’t connect with any of the people at these groups. I don’t know if it’s just the peculiarities of the type of person that these events draw, or the generation gap, or my own internalized transphobia or what, but I just don’t feel we’re cut from the same cloth and the groups actually discourage me rather than support me.
    I was reading one of your posts on Crossdream Life and I noticed that we both live in Portland. I thought maybe you might be a potential role model or peer or friend, and I was wondering if you might want to meet for tea or coffee sometime. If so, you can email me at
    duckducktruce (at) gmail (dot) com
    Hope you are doing well.

    1. ‘My female side is definitely still chained up and gagged in the dungeon of my mind, but her groans are getting louder, and I have a suspicion I’d be much happier if I let her out.’
      Jesus Christ. I knew MtTs were all about their sexual fetish, but do they all think like serial killers too? Once again, they manage to surpass previously estimated levels of creepiness.

    2. From “Nicky”:
      “Why are you fighting this? Maybe you like S&M and porn too much to align yourself with Dworkin?”
      Nice and rapey, just like all misogynists.
      And seriously, what the fuck is up with these dudes and projection?
      They say we’re into S&M, they reference people locked into dungeons and gagged.
      They say we look like dudes and they are SOOOOOOO much hotter but the opposite is always true.
      These are some deeply sick fuckstains.
      Actually admits to having a paraphilia sexualising oppression and still wants to come into our spaces so he can play with his willy.

    3. this agp contacted me a week ago to try to get my help to take down your blog
      he linked me my comment from the transdroid post
      i just found the message now and he used the name Nicky
      im sure you’ve already looked up the email addy (!)
      too funny sometimes

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